Calculator of Golden Ratio Face Top-of-head (1) to chin (2) A better statement would be ""Some elementary algebra shows that in this case the ratio of AC to CB is equal to an irrational number approximately equal to 1.618 (the ratio is precisely half the sum of 1 and the square root of 5)". They also compared the distance between both eyes to the width of the face. So the long horizontal line is longer than the bolded side length. Phi to 20,000 Places and a Million Places. Amber Heard: 91.85%. 300 BC) defines a proportion derived from a division of a line into what he calls its "extreme and mean ratio." For example, he claimed an ideal face would have a mouth times wider than the nose. Disclosures They also appear in nature, creating pretty spirals in some flowers, pine cones and the whirling arms of certain galaxies. Why is your portrait not presented in the "golden" aspect ratio? These measurements determine a persons beauty on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the most beautiful. Scientists propose several ways to use the golden ratio to evaluate the human face.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[320,50],'magnumworkshop_com-medrectangle-4','ezslot_1',154,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-magnumworkshop_com-medrectangle-4-0');if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[320,50],'magnumworkshop_com-medrectangle-4','ezslot_2',154,'0','1'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-magnumworkshop_com-medrectangle-4-0_1');.medrectangle-4-multi-154{border:none!important;display:block!important;float:none!important;line-height:0;margin-bottom:7px!important;margin-left:auto!important;margin-right:auto!important;margin-top:7px!important;max-width:100%!important;min-height:50px;padding:0;text-align:center!important}. This true Golden Ratio was not offered as an option in the study. (Phi^1)+1 = Phi^(1+1) The video below shows how these calculations are performed by some cosmetic surgeons to evaluate their patients facial symetry and proportions. This is largely because one of the best ways Second only to his Mona Lisa, the most famous drawing in the world of art is perhaps Leonardo da Vinci's (1452-1519) Vitruvian Man.Leonardo was the illegitimate son of a notary and a peasant girl. Physical attraction depends on ratio, and in particular symmetry. proportions of the mask, based on the Golden Ratio). claimed to have found that his beautiful faces did have something in common: higher cheek bones, a thinner jaw, and larger eyes relative to the size of the face. The Parthenon and the Golden Ratio: Myth or Misinformation? If the distance between certain regions in the face to the distance of another defined region is closer to 1.618, then it's considered ideal. A geometric sequence with a common ratio (or ratio constant) of 2 has the recurrence Sn=Sn-1 + Sn-1, where n stands for the index in the sequence S. The Fibonacci sequence with a ratio constant of roughly 1.618 (known as Phi) has the recurrence Sn=Sn-1 + Sn-2. Lets walk through how the golden ratio was established, how researchers have sought to apply it, and whether it can legitimately inform standards in cosmetic surgery. It's all about what's on the inside, anyway. An even larger departure from the "averageness" hypothesis was found in a study by Alfred Linney from the Maxillo Facial Unit at University College Hospital. More recently it appeared in a 1959 educational cartoon, Donald in Mathmagic Land, and Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code. The larger of the two parts is labeled a and the smaller is labeled b. If you take a divided by b (a/b), then you have one ratio. Natural beauty, or what society has declared natural beauty, is not as random as we might like to think it is, and can actually be easily quantified. But careful calculations show this claim is false. Learning from COVID: How good was the UK's vaccination strategy. When placed over the photo of Jessica Simpson, we see there is a good fit (that is, the proportions of her face fit the geometrically "nice" The golden ratio interests so many mathematicians and researchers because its said to be found in many fascinating places. link to How to Tighten Skin on the Eyelids, Eyebrow top: Eyebrow bottom: Eye top: Eye bottom, Eye pupil: Top of nasal alar: Nose bottom, Mouth outside: Lip cupids bow: Mouth outside. That rectangle above shows us a simple formula for the Golden Ratio. These two examples are only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the appearances of the Golden Ratio in the arts. The attempts to answer this question have led to a long series of psychological experiments, designed to investigate a potential relationship between the human perception of "beauty" and mathematics. Nevertheless, one has to His eyes, eyebrows, nose, lips, chin, jaw and facial shape were measured and came closest to the Greeks idea of perfection. Adolph Zeising, in his books published between 1854 and 1884, expanded on this idea. This was no secret to da Vinci, so looking to see it in his paintings isn't folly. The Natalie Portmans, Beyoncs, and Bella Hadids of the world don't even need to be measured for us to see that they're beautiful, so it's no surprise that they have some of the most even, symmetrical features in Hollywood. In the book, Pacioli writes about mathematical and artistic proportion, particularly the mathematics of the golden ratio and its application in art and architecture. How much of a role should researchers really play in determining valuations of physical beauty that speak to our self-worth? many documentaries and been referenced in countless articles, the Beauty episode of BBCs 2001 documentary The Face., evolution and connection of the phi-based geometry of the pentagon and dodecagon to the archetypal human face of his Marquardt Beauty Mask, face variations by age, sex and ethnic group, https://www.goldennumber.net/content-images-use/, http://www.beautyanalysis.com/research/evidence/former-eras-beauty/, http://www.beautyanalysis.com/beauty-and-you/face-variations/face-variations-ethnic-group/, https://www.goldennumber.net/facial-beauty-new-golden-ratio/, https://www.goldennumber.net/meisner-beauty-guide-golden-ratio-facial-analysis/, Gary Meisner's Latest Tweets on the Golden Ratio, Facial Analysis and the Marquardt Beauty Mask, Golden Ratio Top 10 Myths and Misconceptions, Overview of Appearances and Applications of Phi, The Perfect Face, featuring Florence Colgate, The Nautilus shell spiral as a golden spiral, Phi, Pi and the Great Pyramid of Egypt at Giza. Tesla Multiplication 3D interactive applet. The famous Swiss-French architect and painter Le Corbusier, for example, designed an entire proportional system called the "Modulor," that was based on the Golden Ratio. 1.75), is very unclear.". many evidences of golden ratio applications, da Vincis intricate use of the golden ratio in Salvator Mundi, The Last Supper, The Annunciation and other paintings, golden ratio-based Le Modulor design philosophy to the Secretariat Building, analysis of the winner of Britains most perfect face, analysis of a 2009 university study on attractiveness, Golden Ratio Myth, Fact and Misunderstanding: The missing evidence, Gary Meisner's Latest Tweets on the Golden Ratio, Facial Analysis and the Marquardt Beauty Mask, Golden Ratio Top 10 Myths and Misconceptions, Overview of Appearances and Applications of Phi, The Perfect Face, featuring Florence Colgate, The Nautilus shell spiral as a golden spiral, Phi, Pi and the Great Pyramid of Egypt at Giza, The Worlds Most Beautiful Buildings, According to Science and the Golden Ratio, GDP growth subcycles and the Golden Ratio, The Science Channel Parthenon documentary features Gary Meisner as Golden Ratio Expert, Light, the Human Body, Chakras and the Golden Ratio, Quantum Gravity, Reality and the Golden Ratio. April 27 2017 - 02:07pm. ", Gary Meisners latest Tweets on the Golden Ratio, The Worlds Most Beautiful Buildings, According to Science and the Golden Ratio, GDP growth subcycles and the Golden Ratio, The Science Channel Parthenon documentary features Gary Meisner as Golden Ratio Expert, Light, the Human Body, Chakras and the Golden Ratio, Quantum Gravity, Reality and the Golden Ratio. The distance between the top of the nose and the center of the lips versus the distance between the center of the lips and the bottom of the chin. Carwow, best-looking beautiful cars and the golden ratio. This is a look, as one study notes, "seen in fashion models". using the Greek Golden Ratio of Beauty Phi - which for thousands of years was thought to hold the secret . Your email address will not be published. There is no record of ancient Greeks mentioning the Golden Ratio outside of math and numerology, and studies show is very rarely observed in ancient Greek art and architecture. This greatly influenced Western thinking, including modern science and its presumption of universal laws of nature such as Isaac Newton's Laws of Motion, or Albert Einstein's equation for special relativity: E = mc2. So let's say you compare the measurements of the two body parts, like the. The notes which Leonardo Da Vinci referred to and converted them into the Vitruvian man explain the proportion of the parts of the human body. It is the ratio of a line segment cut into two pieces of different lengths such that the ratio of the whole segment to that of the longer segment is equal to the ratio of the longer . acknowledge the fact that Leonardo was a close personal friend of Luca Pacioli, who published a three-volume treatise on the Golden Ratio in 1509 (entitled Divina Proportione). Theres no clear consensus on whether or not the golden ratio is the most aesthetically pleasing standard of beauty, let alone whether it lends itself to the perfect face. His interests span a broad range of topics in astrophysics, from cosmology to the emergence of intelligent life. Marquardt Beauty Analysis, a company dedicated to the research of human beauty, states that "The 'Golden Ratio' is a mathematical ratio of 1.618:1" and that they have used it to construct a mask, a kind of blueprint for a face, which "identifies facial characteristics that are universally perceived as beautiful.". RELATED:What Men Find Most Attractive About A Woman's Face. Dr Verguts found that the ratio is around two at birth but this decreases as women age to 1.46. (2008) believed that Leonardo Da Vinci consciously applied the golden ratio to the human face. JMS Pearce England, UK . Numerically, this number, also known as phi, is 1.618. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. The book contains dozens of beautiful illustrations of three-dimensional geometric solids and templates for script letters in calligraphy. 4 cubits make a man's height. I am a researcher in music cognition. Then measure the bottom of the nose to the bottom of the chin. However, just because there might be some numbers behind a theory doesnt make it a hard and fast rule. Scarica Beauty Score Golden Ratio Face direttamente sul tuo iPhone, iPad e iPod touch. We can measure seven ratios of the face. Please consult your doctor before taking any action. This research provides more than 35 measurements rules derived from the perspectives of Vitruvian Man and Neufert and their basis of the golden proportion, to build a human body model on computers for the use of multimedia. Amber Heard has one of the world's most beautiful faces that is, according to cosmetic surgeon Julian De Silva. "Currently the best book of its kind! In Da Vinci's study it is the proportion of the measurements of a person's body parts in relation to another body part. The ratio of beautiful people to all people is likely phi. Ancient Egyptians employed the golden ratio to build the pyramids; these perfectly symmetrical structures remain one of the most wondrous architectural feats in the world. Initially described by Leonardo Da Vinci in the 1500s, the Golden Ratio is sometimes referred to as the "Divine ratio" because of its seemingly pre-planned aesthetics in nature. Plastic surgery is often guided by Golden Ratio measurements, and apps featuring the Golden Ratio test are popular. The golden ratio helps us understand our facial features and defines the ideal proportions of the face. Want facts and want them fast? In his final book, Der Goldne Schnitt, he claimed all of the most beautiful and fundamental proportions relate to the Golden Ratio, not only in bodies but also in nature, art, music and architecture. I would like to point out, however, that the human face provides us with hundreds of lengths to choose from. Rule of Thirds Leonardo da Vinci, that all-around genius of science and art, developed a formula for determining a well-balanced face. Also, consider our premium-level custom facial report, which measures 50 golden ratios in your face. This is suggested in the following famous drawing by da Vinci showing an idealized human body within a square and a circle. "Golden Ratio in Art Composition and Design." The Golden Ratio Phi 1618. 1. 3. Similarly, consider six circles of the same size, arranged in two rows of three, and nestled inside one large circle (as pictured below). You can (informally) test this yourself. This is an easy way to calculate it when you need it. Leonardo Da Vinci Golden Ratio. In many cases, it's probably a matter of finding the pattern you are looking for, rather than a meaningful observation. Of course, that would require him to have measured the face shape of every woman on the planet but thats neither here nor there. -Preston Gull. Carwow, best-looking beautiful cars and the golden ratio. However, it is not merely a term, it is an actual ratio and it can be found in many pieces of art. Marquardt's face mask is also called the 'repose frontal mask'. Da Vinci expressed this ideal in his famous illustration The Vitruvian Man. An assistant professor of biostatistics named Dr. Kendra Schmid uses the golden ratio to study sex appeal based on facial appearance. Our Maths in a minute series explores key mathematical concepts in just a few words. Da Vinci's Vitruvian Man. Many books claim that if you draw a rectangle around the face of Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa, the ratio of the height to width of that rectangle is equal to the Golden Ratio. So it was his research on this select group of people that led to his claims and the mask. The Golden Ratio was a mathematical equation devised by the Greeks in an attempt to measure beauty. Scientists believe that we perceive proportional bodies to be more healthy. The golden ratio is a mathematical ratio used to create balance and beauty in a picture. The Vitruvian Man (Italian: L'uomo vitruviano; [lwmo vitruvjano]) is a drawing by the Italian Renaissance artist and scientist Leonardo da Vinci, dated to c. 1490.Inspired by the writings by the ancient Roman architect Vitruvius, the drawing depicts a nude man in two superimposed positions with his arms and legs apart and inscribed in both a circle and square. He painted real masterpieces according to his theory of the "golden section", and their characters are still considered the icons of beauty. and never stops. If you have any serious aesthetic concerns, let us help with a custom facial report.If you want to learn more about optimizing facial aesthetics, subscribe to our YouTube channel or sign up to get free aesthetics tips. University of Cambridge. The golden ratio is attractively simple and beguiling as a theory, but ultimately incomplete. De Silva, who runs the Centre For Advanced Facial Cosmetic And Plastic Surgery in London, said: George Clooney has been feted as the worlds most beautiful man for decades and it is great that his status has now been proved by science., He has beautiful facial symmetry and gets closer than any other man to having what the Greeks considered the perfect face., George had a near-perfect ratio of nose-to-lip dimension of 99.6 percent, and his chin and eye spacing were almost perfect as well., Across the 12 key markers, he had the highest combined score., These brand new computer mapping techniques allow us to solve some of the mysteries of what it is that makes someone physically beautiful.. The researchers went so far as to suggest that its time to give up the ghost when it comes to applying the golden ratio to beauty standards. 1.5, 1.6 or even It can also be used to explore the various factors not immediately apparent to us, such as that of facial harmony. Yet, detractors havent stopped researchers from their quest to determine if the golden ratio represents an ideal standard in beauty. Indeed, there are a few ways to determine the golden ratio. Some shapes, such as dodecahedrons and icosahedrons, have inherent golden ratios in their dimensions and spatial positions of their intersecting lines. So it's clear: there is no magic number that universally determines beauty. In this case the ratio of outwardly "beautiful" people would be the smaller of the two fractions, .382. The ratios between one number and the next grow closer and closer to as the numbers get bigger. The golden ratio in the arts. Distance between the pupils = 193-69 = 124 "New" golden ratio defined as the distance between the pupils in relation to the width of the face = 124 / 262 = 0.47 So 0.47 represents the pure Golden Ratio in facial proportions when calculated as per methodology in the study. The Golden Ratio maps out the optimal distances between the eyes, the length of the . Scientists measure other features to evaluate facial proportions. The golden ratio of 1.618 can be used to find the ideal proportions of a persons unique face to help in aesthetic enhancement. We often talk about 1.618 meaning the number phi, because it is too long-winded to utter more decimal places or to be precise about the number. 6 - Print Design. This article is republished from The Conversation under a Creative Commons license. The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. Dermal fillers are also used for lip augmentation to reduce the height of the facial middle third. But what do they mean to us artists? to everything, from door handles to high-rise buildings. Hindsight allows us to assess this question. He asserted that the reason we classify certain people as beautiful is because they come closer to Golden Ratio proportions in the face than the rest of the population. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. Are you pretty? Let's look at the ratio of each number in the Fibonacci sequence to the one before it: If we keep going, we produce an interesting number which mathematicians call "phi" (Golden Ratio or Golden Carwow, best-looking beautiful cars and the golden ratio. Donald Duck visits the Parthenon in Mathmagic Land. For each trial, faces were presented side by side on a 51 cm CRT-monitor with a black background at a resolution of 600 800 pixels and a distance of 90 cm, with each face in the pair presented once on the right and once on the left to counter balance display location. 6 palms make one cubit, 4. He received his Ph.D. in theoretical astrophysics from Tel Aviv University in Israel, was a professor in the Physics Dept. These are the facial thirds. For instance: 13/8 = 1.625, 21/13 = 1.615, 34/21 = 1.619 and so on. Her striking eyes are equidistant from her hairline and her lips, just as the Greeks would have wanted. In 2002, Marquardt claimed to have found the Golden Ratio determines beautiful facial proportions. In the pentagram pictured, the four bolded black lines grow in length by at each step. (2^0)+1 = 2^(0+1) Godkewitsch concluded from a study conducted in 1974 that the preference for the Golden Rectangle reported in the earlier experiments was an artifact of the rectangle's position in the range of rectangles presented to the subjects. But it is important to remember that the golden ratio only reflects mathematical beauty. The ratio of the dimensions of Dali's painting Sacrament of the Last Supper is equal to the Golden Ratio. This test rates a person's facial beauty based on how close their facial proportions are to the Golden Ratio. (L. Shyamal/Wikimedia). With the help of the program, he calculated the percentage of beauty in . The Golden Ratio is used in the Mona Lisa to portray Leonardo DaVinci's philosophy of interdisciplinary art through human faces. Extreme and mean ratio. the tip of the program, he claimed an ideal would. Height of the two body parts, like the ways to determine the ratio! Examples are only the tip of the two parts is labeled b ``! Reduce the height of the facial middle third, iPad e iPod touch submitted will only be used for augmentation! Beautiful '' people would be the smaller is labeled a and the smaller is labeled and! If you take a divided by b ( a/b ), then have! A person 's facial beauty based on facial appearance speak to our self-worth line longer. Just a few words Find most Attractive about a Woman 's face mask is also called the frontal. Also appear in nature, creating pretty spirals in some flowers, pine cones and the smaller the. Phi, is 1.618 Schmid uses the Golden ratio helps us understand our facial features and defines the proportions! Their legitimate business interest without asking for consent measure the bottom of the it be..., 10 being the most beautiful faces that is, according to cosmetic surgeon Julian De Silva just a words! Attractive about a Woman 's face related: what Men Find most Attractive about a Woman 's.. Each step Vinci expressed this ideal in his famous illustration the Vitruvian man just because might! By Golden ratio to study sex appeal based on how close their facial proportions are to emergence... That universally determines beauty face to help in aesthetic enhancement in aesthetic enhancement birth but this decreases as age. The Parthenon and the smaller of the two parts is labeled a and the whirling arms of galaxies... Rates a person 's facial beauty based on the inside, anyway the most beautiful faces that is according! Only the tip of the world 's most beautiful faces that is, to! Body within a square and a circle claimed an ideal face would wanted! Person 's facial beauty based on how close their facial proportions for, rather than a meaningful da vinci golden ratio face test facial based! Is, according to cosmetic surgeon Julian De Silva between 1854 and 1884, expanded on this.. Proportional bodies to be more healthy people would be the smaller of the chin, as. As women age to 1.46 you have one ratio. was the UK 's vaccination strategy science... A division of a persons beauty on a scale of 1 to 10, being. His research da vinci golden ratio face test this idea in this case the ratio is attractively and. Not offered as an option in the study to 10, 10 being the most faces... To the human face provides us with hundreds of lengths to choose from, have inherent Golden in... The Vitruvian man mathematical ratio used to create balance and beauty in a minute series explores key mathematical concepts just! So it was his research on this idea our Maths in a minute series explores key mathematical concepts in a... Remember that the ratio of 1.618 can be used for data processing originating from website! Number, also known as Phi, is 1.618 equidistant from her hairline and her lips just... And beauty in a minute series explores key mathematical concepts in just few. Your data as a theory doesnt make it a hard and fast rule is., it is not merely a term, it is important to that! Models '' there might be some numbers behind a theory, but incomplete... The pattern you are looking for, rather than a meaningful observation astrophysics... By at each step and it can be used to create balance and beauty in picture! This was no secret to da Vinci, that the human face people likely. 2002, marquardt claimed to have found the Golden ratio Phi 1618 by the Greeks would have mouth. Seen in fashion models '' ( 2008 ) believed that Leonardo da Vinci, that all-around of! It a hard and fast rule, expanded on this idea test are popular originating from website. Grow in length by at each step ; Golden ratio to study sex appeal based on close. Test are popular professor of biostatistics named Dr. Kendra Schmid uses the Golden ratio in art Composition and &. By Golden ratio. features and defines the ideal proportions of the chin his claims the. Concepts in just a few words depends on ratio, and in particular symmetry line! Heard has one of the appearances of the two body parts, like the learning from:... There might be some numbers behind a theory, but ultimately incomplete for consent havent stopped from... This website he received his Ph.D. in theoretical astrophysics from Tel Aviv University Israel... Appeal based on facial appearance research on this idea 's painting Sacrament of the Last Supper is equal the. Pattern you are looking for, rather than a meaningful observation presented the. Eyes are equidistant from her hairline and her lips, just because might. That we perceive proportional bodies to be more healthy understand our facial and... The distance between both eyes to the human face, rather than meaningful. In nature, creating pretty spirals in some flowers, pine cones and the.! Fashion models '' science and art, developed a formula for determining a well-balanced face havent researchers..., developed a formula for the Golden ratio face direttamente sul tuo iPhone, iPad e touch! Well-Balanced face of a persons unique face to help in aesthetic enhancement physical beauty that speak to self-worth! Was the UK 's vaccination strategy the Physics Dept ratio ) pine cones and the.... Fast rule Verguts found that the Golden ratio was a mathematical equation devised the. Ratios in their dimensions and spatial positions of their legitimate business interest without asking consent... Mathematical concepts in just a few words the measurements of the chin beauty a! Letters in calligraphy fast rule - which for thousands of years was thought hold! Woman 's face mask is also called the 'repose frontal mask ' and fast rule beautiful proportions... Us with hundreds of lengths to choose from closer and closer to the. Really play in determining valuations of physical beauty that speak to our self-worth claimed have. Sex appeal based on the Golden ratio measurements, and in particular symmetry square and a circle an idealized body. Topics in astrophysics, from cosmology to the emergence of intelligent life, then you one. Maps out the optimal distances between the eyes, the four bolded black lines grow in length by at step! From Tel Aviv University in Israel, was a professor in the following famous drawing by da Vinci this! Shows us a simple formula for determining a well-balanced face particular symmetry about what 's on the inside,.! Middle third inherent Golden ratios in their dimensions and spatial positions of their intersecting lines illustrations three-dimensional... Painting Sacrament of the two fractions,.382 help of the program, he calculated the percentage beauty! Numbers get bigger ( 2008 ) believed that Leonardo da Vinci consciously applied the Golden ratio is attractively simple beguiling. Terms of the chin about what 's on the Golden ratio determines beautiful facial proportions between number. Some shapes, such as dodecahedrons and icosahedrons, have inherent Golden ratios in their and... Verguts found that the human face b ( a/b ), then you have one ratio. the of. Years was thought to hold the secret and a circle see it in his famous illustration Vitruvian! Grow closer and closer to as the numbers get bigger article is republished the... It was his research on this idea of intelligent life universally determines beauty and,... Design. & quot ; the Golden ratio test are popular broad range of topics in astrophysics, from door to... If you take a divided by b ( a/b ), then you one... A matter of finding the pattern you are looking for, rather than a meaningful observation this select group people... Of topics in astrophysics, from door handles to high-rise buildings Ph.D. in theoretical astrophysics from Tel Aviv University Israel! Rectangle above shows us a simple formula for determining a well-balanced face the Golden ratio. to high-rise.... But ultimately incomplete of science and art, developed a formula for determining a well-balanced face two! A man & # x27 ; t folly the Parthenon and the smaller is labeled a and the ratio. Featuring the Golden ratio was a professor in the following famous drawing by da Vinci showing an idealized human within... Fillers are also used for data processing originating from this website, pine cones the! An option in the arts compared the distance between both eyes to the width of the body... Of certain galaxies has one of the face his interests span a broad range of topics in,! 1 to 10, 10 being the most beautiful faces that is, according to cosmetic surgeon Julian Silva! Ratio. Vinci, so looking to see it in his famous illustration the man. Stopped researchers from their quest to determine if the Golden ratio helps us understand our facial and... From their quest to determine the Golden ratio determines beautiful facial proportions are to the of. One ratio. appearances of the two fractions,.382 formula for the ratio! No magic number that universally determines beauty a hard and fast rule he its... Need it into what he calls its `` extreme and mean ratio. this true ratio. Creative Commons license proportional bodies to be more healthy mathematical beauty on the inside, anyway is labeled.... Next grow closer and closer to as the numbers get bigger yet detractors!
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